BACK ISSUE
In Our Gossip, Girl Era
Why is gossiping sooo fun? And how has the world of celebrity gossip changed over the years? To answer these questions and learn the A to Zs of celebrities (from Ava Max to Zendaya), Josh and guest host Rachelle Hampton take a field trip inside the human brain, go back in time with a PhD gossip expert, and chat with Who? Weekly's Bobby Finger and Lindsey Weber.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
Josh Gwynn: Are you feeling down? Not enough drama in your life? Have you run out of conversation topics for when you have lunch with your co-worker? For all these situations and more, try gossip. Gossip is available everywhere all the time. Gossip contains all natural emotions like envy, judgment, and schadenfreude. Gossiping provides you with a full body workout using dynamic movements like throwing shade, spilling tea, and running off-eth at the mouth. After a full day of gossip, you'll be ready for a good night's rest. Four out of five hairdressers say that you should try gossip. They also say that Jessica lied about not being too sick to go to her niece's christening, and that she was actually in Vegas with her sister's ex-boyfriend, so girl, you didn't hear it from me. As the saying goes, a gossip a day keeps the kids entertained. Now, more than ever, let's gossip.
Rachelle Hampton: Common side effects of gossip include nausea, diarrhea, dehydration, a sudden rush of adrenaline, lingering guilt, addiction to influencer drama TikToks, and sleeplessness brought on by obsessive thoughts about the Kardashians. Do not take gossip if you have a family history of being able to dish it but not able to take it.
Back Issue Intro: Beyonce? You look like Luther Vandross. Ho, but make it fashion. I don't get no sleep because of y'all. It's Britney, bitch. We were rooting for you, Tiffany. We were all rooting for you. But I ain’t one to gossip… Who said that?
Josh Gwynn: Welcome to Back Issue, a weekly podcast that revisits formative moments in pop culture that we still think about. I'm Josh Gwynn. It's time for us to step back and ask the big questions. Do we really have free will? Are humans good or evil? Does life carry any inherent meaning or is it just a lie we tell ourselves so that we're not afraid to get out of bed in the morning? Yeah, I'm just kidding, we talking about gossip this week. And the we today is me and self-proclaimed knower of all drama, Rachelle Hampton, a culture writer at Slate and host of the podcast ICYMI. It's a show all about the capital I, Internet, sort of the current gossip factory. And if you like Back Issue, I know you’re going to love ICYMI. Welcome Rachelle.
Rachelle Hampton: Hi Josh.
Josh Gwynn: What's good?
Rachelle Hampton: I'm so excited to be here. Also I've never been introduced as knower of all, so I'm adding that to my resume right now.
Josh Gwynn: Put it on there.
Rachelle Hampton: I'm a do it. One thing I do know for sure is that we've got a full docket for today's episode. First, we're taking a little field trip inside the human brain to find out why it feels kind of incredible to gossip.
Josh Gwynn: Then we're literally going to get schooled in celebrity gossip studies by an actual professor, Andrea McDonnell.
Rachelle Hampton: And finally, we're sitting down with Bobby Finger and Lindsey Weber, hosts of the podcast Who? Weekly, to learn our A to Z's of celebrities. From Ava Max to Zendaya.
Josh Gwynn: I'm glad they're coming. We need help.
Rachelle Hampton: Help us. You're our only hope. But before any of that, I actually think we need to take a little jaunt down memory lane and go back, back-
Josh Gwynn: Back, back-
Rachelle Hampton: Back. Josh, what is the first thing you think of when you hear the word gossip?
Josh Gwynn: My mind goes straight to music. I remember being in the back of my parents' car listening to Timex Social Club, that 80's bop, and the drum kit and the synth, and it's like, "Look at all these rumors" …
TIMEX SOCIAL CLUB MUX
Josh Gwynn: There's this episode of The Proud Family, where Penny Proud covers that song.
THE PROUD FAMILY COVER MUX
Rachelle Hampton: I'm not going to lie, I thought that was an original Penny Proud moment.
Josh Gwynn: Iconic.
Rachelle Hampton: And I'm glad to find out that it's not.
Josh Gwynn: The number one thing I think of when I hear the word gossip is the underrated millennial bop by none other than Lindsay Lohan herself, Rumors.
LINDSAY LOHAN RUMORS MUX
Rachelle Hampton: Wow. You just put me into a time machine back. Just iconic.
Josh Gwynn: Iconic.
Rachelle Hampton: The music legend. We stan. But I will say Lindsay might have been wrong in this song because I, for one, am not and never have been sick and tired of rumors. I am all about them.
Josh Gwynn: Now, Rachelle, how did you get indoctrinated into the world of celebrity gossip?
Rachelle Hampton: So, I think my mom was always a bit of a gossip. I hope she's not listening to this. And so I started to think everyone's business was my business, and then celebrity-wise, my first real moment where I was like, "This is for me," was when Kristen Stewart and Robert Pattinson broke up.
Josh Gwynn: The community was going through it.
Rachelle Hampton: I was going through it personally. I have never experienced heartbreak like that. What about you, Josh?
Josh Gwynn: The first piece of celebrity gossip news that I think I was heavily invested in was the change from Destiny's Child as a foursome to Destiny's Child as a trio.
Rachelle Hampton: Oh my God.
Josh Gwynn: It was an apocalyptic explosion.
Rachelle Hampton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: Up was down. Down was right. I had no idea what was going on. And this girl joins Destiny's Child for six months, Farrah, and then she leaves too. And I'm just like, "What is going on?" And I remember all of these Geocity, freaking Angelfire websites about how people hated Beyonce. Look at how much culture has moved.
Rachelle Hampton: The aftereffects, I think of it like a nuclear cloud. I felt the radiation from that moment.
Josh Gwynn: From that moment forever. Forever.
Rachelle Hampton: Mm-hmm. Okay. I do feel like this is a safe space to tell you about maybe my biggest gossip obsession: historical gossip.
Josh Gwynn: Okay Bridgerton.
Rachelle Hampton: I am an Anne Boleyn stan from the moment I was born. I was just like, "Give me the Dear America series. Give me The Other Boleyn Girl." I am obsessed with the War of the Roses. It is, I think, Real Housewives but in 1534. Those are the Wikipedia pages that I am in consistently. I am just like, "This is the fourth Henry that I've seen in the past 10 minutes and I don't know how to keep them straight, but he's important."
Josh Gwynn: My love of gossip runs so deep. There are so many nights I know I should go to bed, but I can't stop scrolling down the personal life sections of Wikipedia pages. So, I got to wondering, if Miss Frizzle took a magic school bus into my brain while I'm devouring some hot goss, what would she find?
Rachelle Hampton: I'd watch the episode.
Josh Gwynn: But we don't got the budget. So, today you get Sir Frizzle fo' Shizzle, that's me.
Rachelle Hampton: Is it time for Josh Academy?
Josh Gwynn: Everyone get your notebooks out because I am about to take you to school for a top notch lecture I'm calling This is Your Brain on Gossip, Girl.
Rachelle Hampton: Well, in true Blair Waldorf fashion, I have my leather-bound notebook and my fountain pen ready to go.
Josh Gwynn: Let's get the projector fired up. Okay. To start off here, before we get to the brain, first we got to talk the gossip industrial complex.
Rachelle Hampton: Okay, I'm pretty sure you just made that up.
Josh Gwynn: Absolutely did. But stay with me.
Rachelle Hampton: I'm with you.
Josh Gwynn: Okay. So, imagine, every day billions of pieces of gossip are imported from all around the world-
CLIP: Hey, we got a fresh pile of gossip here.
Josh Gwynn: Picked up and dropped off at talk shows, Twitter, Page Six, barber shops, schoolyards, water coolers, podcasts.
Rachelle Hampton: Hey.
Josh Gwynn: Churches.
Rachelle Hampton: Preach.
Josh Gwynn: Buddhist monasteries. Probably, right?
Rachelle Hampton: What else do they have to do but talk shit? Come on.
Josh Gwynn: So, that gossip makes its way to your friends, your neighbors' aunts, your aunts, and they pass along the gossip to you. Now, can someone in the class give me an example of gossip?
Rachelle Hampton: Oh, pick me. I think an example of gossip would be Naomi Campbell hitting someone with her cell phone.
Josh Gwynn: Perfect example. Let's say your friend tells you the gossip.
CLIP: Did you hear Naomi Campbell threw her phone at her assistant in Paris?
Josh Gwynn: That piece of gossip enters a little factory called the human brain, where it gets processed by the prefrontal cortex, and that's where things really heat up. That's where we think about information in relation to ourselves, right? It's what makes us feel better about ourselves.
Rachelle Hampton: So, the Judge Mathis department.
Josh Gwynn: Judge Mablean.
Rachelle Hampton: Gossip just can make you feel like you're not as messy as you are. Not you specifically-
Josh Gwynn: No, no. It definitely makes me feel better about my messiness. And on top of that, there's studies that have linked gossiping with the brain releasing oxytocin.
Rachelle Hampton: Oh, love on the brain. That's a love hormone, isn't it?
Josh Gwynn: Exactly. Oxytocin can make us feel happy and connected to others. In other words, when we gossip, oxytocin levels rise and our pleasure centers light up.
CLIP: Oh yeah.
Josh Gwynn: Now, before class is dismissed, can I get a volunteer to summarize today's lesson
Rachelle Hampton: Oh, oh, me, me. Call me. My hand's up. Sir Gwynn. Sir Frizzle
Josh Gwynn: Okay, Rachelle.
Rachelle: So, the big takeaways are, one, gossip can come from anywhere. Two, our brains actually put a lot of work into doing things that seem really simple. And, three, part of the reason it's fun to gossip is because these feel-good hormones and chemicals get released when we talk shit.
Josh Gwynn: A+. Great class today. Remember to turn in your midterms on Tuesday.
Rachelle Hampton: No.
Rachelle Hampton: All right, so now we know why we like gossip scientifically. But what I want to know is what makes celebrity gossip specifically just so irresistible. Why are we drawn to talking about famous people we don't know and will probably never know?
Josh Gwynn: It's a really good question. And to answer that, I think we have to turn to a true expert.
Rachelle Hampton: Josh and I called up Andrea McDonnell.
Andrea McDonnell: I'm Andrea McDonnell. I'm associate professor and director of the communication program at Providence College.
Rachelle Hampton: She's the author of the book Reading Celebrity Gossip Magazines, which is a deep dive on the history and sociology of celebrity gossip.
nn: Child, I'm over here playing teacher and she's over there with an actual seminar-level class on the subject with actual ass office hours and a whole ass curriculum. I'll say right after we hopped on the phone with Andrea, I knew immediately that we had picked the right person to go to when she made such a great point about our society's relationship to gossip.
Andrea McDonnell: It's a problem that gossip and popular culture is trivialized because it's so often feminized. When the conversation, regardless of who's involved in terms of gender, is feminized, it's dismissed. But especially today I feel like popular culture is a mirror through which we are constantly thinking about politics and to ignore it is to really neglect where people are in the conversation.
Josh Gwynn: The reason I think it's so great is because I say this all the time, Rachelle. This is why we started Back Issue. I wanted to give spotlight to things that seem easy to trivialize, but things that we know are important to us.
Rachelle Hampton: Yes, yes. Absolutely. And I feel like any time something is really visible and widely circulated, even if it seems silly or not serious, that visibility merits thoughtful analysis.
Josh Gwynn: Right. Everyone's talking about Kim Kardashian's butt, and you're telling me that there's not a critical serious conversation to be had? I don't believe you.
Rachelle Hampton: And one of the reasons we do talk about celebrity gossip is that it really often feels like it's everywhere.
Josh Gwynn: All the time.
Rachelle Hampton: But that actually wasn't always the case.
Andrea McDonnell: Fame has existed for millennia. So, we can think about King Tut. We still know who King Tut is. There was no Instagram, right? But we wouldn't necessarily think about that as celebrity. Celebrity is linked tightly with the development of media. I would really start with photography and the ability to mechanically reproduce one's own image. So, now when we have photography becoming more accessible, now we can start to see imagery in newspapers, for example. And so we think about that kind of relationship to famous figures becoming more intimate. As we move up through film, and then especially radio, the famous voice comes into the domestic space of the home.
CLIP: This is Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt's own program.
CLIP: To my favorite husband starring Lucille Ball.
CLIP: General Electric program starring Miss Judy Garland. Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to start off with-
Andrea McDonnell: And being able to hear and see the same people day after day, week after week, we grow that sense of personal connection with them. And in the early 2000s is really this critical moment of flux, and there's this explosion of celebrity culture.
Rachelle Hampton: That phrasing, an explosion of celebrity culture, it's perfect. There is no other way to describe the turn of the century.
Josh Gwynn: When you think back to what was happening around 2000, it felt like we really were seeing a new evolution of celebrity culture.
Rachelle Hampton: Yeah, there was just this way that celebrities started having global, international reach in a way they'd never had before. They had this ability to take over the world.
CLIP: The Spice Girls went from nobodies to international pop icons.
Josh Gwynn: And the ways that politics and celebrity started to overlap.
CLIP: Roll this around on your tongue, Governor-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Rachelle Hampton: And, of course, reality television.
CLIP: That's hot. That's hot. That's hot. That's hot. That's hot. That's hot.
Rachelle Hampton: I feel like reality TV made gossip come to life in a way right in front of our eyes on our screens in our homes.
Josh Gwynn: In our homes, in our living rooms. And it helped create this system of people, this caste of celebrity, right? That were famous for being famous.
Rachelle Hampton: For being famous. And to that point, obviously the biggest change of this era was how the internet basically rewrote celebrity culture.
Josh Gwynn: And how celebrity culture rewrote the internet, right? Because you have Google images. Who do we thank? J. Lo's Versace dress and all y'all that were looking for pictures for it. And we have YouTube. Who do we have to thank? Janet Jackson. Actually, you have to thank Justin Timberlake for leaving Janet out there, but that's a whole different episode.
Rachelle Hampton: It's on sight, Justin.
Andrea McDonnell: At the same time, we see this explosion of media technology. We also get the ability for photographers to shoot digitally and then to not only have that image, but to be able to send it instantaneously over the internet to anywhere in the world. Photo editors who ran the industry in the 90's have told me that they would be sitting on a red-eye getting the photos from LA to New York.
Rachelle Hampton: My jaw dropped when Andrea said that.
Josh Gwynn: Shocked I tell you.
Rachelle Hampton: I forgot about the concept of photos being a physical item in the real world.
Josh Gwynn: Object permanence, I don't know her.
Rachelle Hampton: Who is she?
Josh Gwynn: Who is she? And when you think about it, it really is a big difference when you're not seeing photos from a movie premiere last week, but instead you're getting a picture of Lauren Conrad at Les Doux wearing True Religion jeans 30 minutes ago. It's different.
Rachelle Hampton: I don't think I've ever heard a more 2000's combination of words in my whole life.
Josh Gwynn: And there's definitely one word that summarizes this era of celebrity culture.
Andrea McDonnell: Brangelina.
CLIP MONTAGE: Brangelina. Brangelina. Brangelina. Brangelina. They are the Brangelina brand. The Brangelina love triangle. The whole Jen-Brad-Angelina triangle was completely on fire. It made everybody go crazy in Hollywood.
Rachelle Hampton: Andrea really helped to break down why the story sold many magazines for years.
Josh Gwynn: And years.
Rachelle Hampton: And years.
Josh Gwynn: And years.
Rachelle Hampton: And years.
Andrea McDonnell: That story gave us a way of thinking about how we identify with the characters, if you will, in that story that may or may not reflect reality. It played on so many of the archetypes that are easily accessible. The idea of Jennifer Aniston as the girl next door and she's this blonde, which again to feed into the stereotypic idea of the ingenue, and Brad Pitt as this kind of American hunk, and then Angelina Jolie, of course at the time was presented as this kind of rebel. And then the whole discourse of a romance breaking up, a new romance beginning, and gossip often is about staking a claim of what we think and why.
Josh Gwynn: Everything Andrea's describing about this key moment in the celebrity gossip timeline, it really all culminates in the invention of social media.
Andrea McDonnell: So, when we get to 2008, of course the gossip magazines go away because we don't need them anymore. I can go directly to Beyonce's personal account and I can see what she's saying. I don't need a gatekeeper. And that changes things again. So, each of these iterations of media change both what's possible and the public engagement with the celebrity culture.
Josh Gwynn: I think that that is a really interesting note to end on with Andrea, and I want talk to you about it for a second. Because Beyonce's a really important figure in the way that this gossip industry works.
Rachelle Hampton: Yes.
Josh Gwynn: Celebrity culture and gossip has always really centered around white people, but she's probably one of the first artists that's been able to really dictate how the media and how gossip should function around her, and use it to her advantage without having to give up much. And to Andrea's thesis, seeing the amount of followers a celebrity has, like Beyonce, it also shows the public's desire to know and to talk about their personal life, AKA to gossip.
Rachelle Hampton: What if gossip is media's DEI consultant? Right?
Josh Gwynn: If you're Doja Cat or you're Lizzo and you're able to show these companies, look, look at all these conversations that are happening online, it only begs the question, why can't Lizzo or Doja Cat be on the cover of these magazines as well as Brangelina for years?
Rachelle Hampton: I feel like social media has really helped to democratize fame in a way. The amount of followers or views you have becomes this undeniable figure that you can point to and say, "Hey, look. I know you don't care about me, but these people do." And that can help an artist convince a record label or a magazine or a studio or some other white gatekeeper that doesn't think that their look or their life or their vibe would be of interest to the public. It can convince these gatekeepers to give these new people opportunities.
Josh Gwynn: But also as well, on the other hand, that doesn't seem fair, right?
Rachelle Hampton: No, not at all.
Josh Gwynn: We've always had a lot of Black spaces, media. Black people have always gone and found their corner and made it the most poppin' in one, right? You got Jet, Vibe, BET. It makes me think maybe the question isn't why isn't Lizzo or Doja Cat on the cover of Vogue. Maybe the question is actually why do we equate being on the cover of Vogue as something more elite than being really celebrated by Black Twitter?
Rachelle Hampton: Well, Josh, we're going to talk more about that divide and the current state of celebrity gossip with the hosts of the podcast Who? Weekly right after the break.
*****MID-ROLL AD BREAK*****
Rachelle Hampton: Well, Josh, we're back and we're here with two gossip luminaries. I can't contain my excitement. I think I'm just going to have to let them introduce themselves.
Lindsey Weber: My name is Lindsey Weber, and I am the co-host of Who? Weekly.
Bobby Finger: My name is Bobby Finger, and I am the co-host of Who? Weekly as well.
Josh Gwynn: I thought y'all were going to do it like, "And we are Destiny's Child" together. That would have been really cool
Bobby Finger: And we are Who? Weekly.
Rachelle Hampton: So, for anyone that doesn't know, Who? Weekly is a podcast about celebrities and the pop culture landscape. And y'all have these two main categories that you use to identify folks, the Whos and the Thems. Can y'all break down those labels for us?
Bobby Finger: Whos are the celebrities that are on the front page of all your favorite websites, on the covers of magazines, who you see all the time and you're inundated by these names, and you don't understand who they are or why they're famous. That's our sweet spot. And the Thems are the ones who are essentially A- and B-listers. They're the people you say, "Oh, them," as opposed to, "Who? Who is that?" And these Whos, they're on the come up. They want attention. They maybe want to be Thems. Some of them are happy staying Whos, but some of them want attention. And those are the people who are the most fun to talk about because they welcome a conversation.
Josh Gwynn: How much of the division between Who to Them is racial? There are people who are extremely Black famous, and maybe white people haven't heard of them. But within Black community and Black circles, they are the shit.
Bobby Finger: I think a lot of that has to do with mastheads. The people that become really famous are the people that are on the front page of People, who are on the cover of Us Weekly, and it's as long as the people who are in those positions are predominantly white and predominantly grandfathered in from decades past-
Josh Gwynn: The gatekeepers.
Bobby Finger: The gatekeepers. As long as that is the case, I think that they will predominantly be white. Just because they're the ones who are the arbiters of cover stories.
Lindsey Weber: I do think it's all about these voices of people who are making the culture, the editorial voice behind it all. Bobby and I, for example, we decide-
Bobby Finger: What we talk about, yeah.
Lindsey Weber: Exactly. And that's something that we've had to really look at. Because it can't just be whatever is natural, whatever we're exposed to. That's not fair. It's also just we need to look more places, which we actively do.
Rachelle Hampton: And y'all have had a lot of practice doing that because you've been doing Who? Weekly for six whole years now. And I think the thing we're most interested in hearing from y'all is what are the stories that your listeners have responded to the most and why do you think that is?
Bobby Finger: Despite the fact that we've done this for six-plus years, I was so surprised by the number of calls we got about the Try Guys.
CLIP: Ned Fulmer leaves the Try Guys after admitting to cheating on his wife, Ariel, with a co-worker.
CLIP: The YouTube stars will be taking a short hiatus.
CLIP: On Labor Day weekend, multiple fans alerted us that they had seen Ned and an employee engaging in public romantic behavior.
Bobby Finger: I thought people would kind of violently not care, like militantly be against any sort of Try Guys discourse.
Josh Gwynn: Out of spite.
Bobby Finger: Yes. But I was so wrong.
Lindsey Weber: But they were curious. They were curious. It was curiosity that I think really drove that one. It was just, why are all these people talking about this thing that I don't seem to know about? And then I think half of the audience goes, "Actually this is something that I've been secretly and very shamefully following for the past whatever years it is." So, there is an amazing split between I'm the expert and I've never heard of this. And I think that's the magic of the podcast because there's always going to be two people a room, one knows and one doesn't.
Josh Gwynn: Right.
Bobby Finger: The other things that were recent were G Flip and Chrishell. G Flip as someone who-
Josh Gwynn: I'm sorry. What's a G Flip?
Rachelle Hampton: Oh wow.
Bobby Finger: G Flip is a ... This is a great question. What is a G Flip?
Rachelle Hampton: Right, what is G Flip?
Bobby Finger: G Flip is a singer-musician from Australia, who has a pretty small cult following.
Lindsey Weber: In the Hayley Kiyoko, Tinashe, Charli XCX realm of celebrity.
Josh Gwynn: So, it's like hyper pop?
Lindsey Weber: Yes, but kind of niche pop lovers love G Flip.
Bobby Finger: Yeah, and Chrishell Stause, the star of Selling Sunset, was dumped by her husband and started dating this extremely niche, extremely Australian, nonbinary musician. And Chrishell Stause has never identified, at least publicly, as queer. So, this is was like, whoa, what's Chrishell Stause up to? We love this for her because she is a very sympathetic character in the show. And I think that because she is so sympathetic people were very endeared to her and wanted the best for her and anyone coming out later in life or in their 30's-plus is ... I love stories like that and the listeners love stories like that.
Josh Gwynn: But wait, are the G Filippians, do they like her?
Bobby Finger: Yes, they do.
Lindsey Weber: Chrishell, yeah, because I think Chrishell is adding fame power to G Flip and they're like, "Yes, this rules for G Flip."
Bobby Finger: And Chrishell is so into G Flip's music.
Lindsey Weber: Right.
Josh Gwynn: Are there stories that feel very niche but you're like, "I will talk anyone's ear off about this thing?"
Lindsey Weber: At this point it's every story.
Josh Gwynn: I was deep into Lea Michele-gate, whether she could read or not.
Rachelle Hampton: Oh my God.
Josh Gwynn: I'm sorry.
Rachelle Hampton: So was I.
Lindsey Weber: So were we.
Josh Gwynn: She just wouldn't say, "I can read." Why won't you just say that
Bobby Finger: Lea Michele is a great example because it was so much fun to talk about because it felt like you were in on some sort of secret inside joke. And then the joke became a little less insider-y and a little more broadly covered, and it got a little less interesting honestly. It got less fun.
Lindsey Weber: You're right. The minute she was asked about this it was ruined. The minute Lea Michele was asked, "Can you read?" I don't want to hear this anymore. And then you have to explain why were people wondering if she could read? Oh well, it goes back to this and this, and it's more of a kind of reactionary joke to a person who everyone feels is a bully, right? We are taking back the bullying agency here of this very powerful person by saying they can't read, which is inherently unfortunately funny. Being illiterate is not a funny thing, but-
Josh Gwynn: Right. I had a lot of problem with that too because I was like-
Lindsey Weber: I have a problem with that too.
Josh Gwynn: I feel like Levar Burton is about to come out and just give me a strong talking to.
Lindsey Weber: No, you're correct, it's not funny. But everyone's laughing.
Bobby Finger: If the tables had turned, if Lea Michele had been Chrishell Stause, who everyone feels sympathy for, we wouldn't have laughed at literacy jokes. Because Lea Michele made herself a villain over the past few years, I think it was much easier to laugh at. You need villains.
Lindsey Weber: And I think also it's because she can clearly read. I think that's why it's funny.
Josh Gwynn: Right, she can read.
Lindsey Weber: It's not-
Rachelle Hampton: Can she? Can she?
Lindsey Weber: If you actually thought she couldn't read, you would feel bad. You wouldn't be laughing.
Josh Gwynn: That's true.
Lindsey Weber: You would be like, "Get this poor girl some phonics hooked on."
Josh Gwynn: There's a punching up that it feels like it is.
Lindsey Weber: Yes.
Bobby Finger: Yes.
Lindsey Weber: So, I think that that's the problem where it becomes unfunny and then the joke kind of fades away, and we kind of steer away from it because we don't need people saying to us, "Oh, it's not nice to say people can't read." Trust me, I know that. It is not nice. But in this scenario it gave us a giggle for all these reasons that are very specific.
Rachelle Hampton: Mm-hmm. I guess kind of following up on that, do y'all think that that's a good barometer of how to engage in gossip? If there is an ethical way, is the question to ask something like, is this fun to talk about?
Lindsey Weber: Do you feel weird talking about it? We luckily ... The Olivia Wilde-Jason Sudeikis thing, that's obviously a little bit Them-y for us. But-
Josh Gwynn: I wanted to talk about Spitgate. It felt like-
Rachelle Hampton: Oh my God, Spitgate was-
Josh Gwynn: It was the lowest stakes, most fun-
Rachelle Hampton: Funniest part of this entire thing.
CLIP: Slapgate move over. Spitgate is here. A lot of people think that Harry spit on Chris.
CLIP: He did not spit on Chris Pine.
Bobby Finger: But think about it. Spitgate was public. Spitgate was in front of people, right? This other stuff is text messages from a driveway, text messages from a bedroom, and it's the same reason why talking about Wendy Williams, who is the patron saint of celebrity gossip, is difficult because it's like, what is Wendy Williams going through? We don't know, but we feel weird talking about it, so maybe that is, like you said, the sign that we shouldn't talk about it. Because if we feel weird talking about something, I think everyone's going to feel weird talking about it. And again, we want the facts, we want the details.
Rachelle Hampton: That is true.
Lindsey Weber: Right. So, unless there's kind of a salad dressing in the whole thing, we really have no interest. But you know it when you hear it. You know it when you hear it. And that's what I think the real answer is, which is annoying to say. There's no rule.
Josh Gwynn: In your amount of time making the show, who has the most impressive to you transition from Who to Them?
Bobby Finger: I think the number one person, it's probably Cardi B from when we started. Because I think Cardi B going from reality star, VH1 reality star, to one of the biggest musical acts-
Lindsey Weber: But she was also in between a vlogger.
Bobby Finger: Yes.
Lindsey Weber: She had this incredible Instagram presence.
Josh Gwynn: A ho never gets cold.
Rachelle Hampton: Yes.
CLIP: I was 21 years old, and I was just doing videos talking about everything, talking about shit that I talk with my friends.
Lindsey Weber: She was able to perform herself as a celebrity in every way. We didn't know she was a rapper until she was a rapper. We didn't know she liked music until she was a musician. She really exemplifies the way that celebrity works now, which is you can do anything you want. If you're a comedian, you can be a singer. If you're a singer, maybe you're funny. Maybe you're a blogger. Maybe you're going to host a TV show. Maybe you're going to do that. She almost opened that door. And when we said, "Why is this reality show person now a rapper that we have to listen to?" She was like, "I am one, so get over it. And I'm a good one." And she was. So, it is one of those things where she was the first almost to prove to us that that was a thing.
Bobby Finger: I don't think anyone really beats her, and I think that someone who's trying to kind of mimic her in a way that is kind of fascinating is Julia Fox is someone that I know that it's only been, what, a year? Maybe less since Julia Fox was sort of thrust into the public eye.
Lindsey Weber: Yeah, totally.
Rachelle Hampton: She was Ben Safdie's muse.
Bobby Finger: Yes, for Uncut Gems.
Rachelle Hampton: For Uncut Gems.
Lindsey Weber: She was a star in this pretty big movie, then we kind of didn't really hear from her after the movie people were done with her. And then all of the sudden she's dating Kanye, and now she's a celebrity.
Bobby Finger: On her own terms.
Lindsey Weber: It's kind of an incredible comeback that wasn't really anyone that went away.
Josh Gwynn: Is she a Who or a Them?
Lindsey Weber: She's a Who for sure.
Bobby Finger: Yeah, for sure. But the persistence of Julia Fox is surprising. And she and Cardi keep chugging that there's something really fascinating about that. And that's why we talk about Rita Ora all the time because it's someone who you look at their body of work as an artist, and it's not that big, but they have this relevance that will not go away. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that they just don't shut up.
Rachelle Hampton: Who do you think the Whos are that have remained Whos and might remain Whos for their entire life that your listeners universally love? They're perfect in their Who-ness.
Bobby Finger: Bebe Rexha. Bebe Rexha, Ava Max. It's the pop stars. It's Kim Petras. It's Charli XCX as much as she tries.
Lindsey Weber: But music is easy for that. I'm thinking of kind of the shameless ... You need more of this Gemma Collins from the UK, one of my faves.
Bobby Finger: Yeah, Gemma Collins.
Lindsey Weber: She's a hun, and kind of that genre of celebrity. All of our favorite reality stars, post-Jersey Shore Snooki. These are the people that kind of fuel the underbelly of celebrity media. Heidi and Spencer, classic.
Josh Gwynn: I love the pop girl examples because they're already kind of living the fantasy a little bit.
Lindsey Weber: Yes.
Bobby Finger: Yes.
Lindsey Weber: We always say it's not a value judgment. To me and Bobby, being a Who is the famous you want to be. You want to not be harassed by paparazzi. You want to get a free drink in a bar if somebody maybe recognizes you and says, "Hey, I love your work." You want to be able to essentially do what you love for your entire life, paid for by your fans, but not have the downfalls of being a celebrity, which are so many of.
Josh Gwynn: So many.
Bobby Finger: You want to pay your rent posting an ad for collagen powder on Instagram.
Josh Gwynn: Absolutely.
Rachelle Hampton: Yeah, that pays your rent. That's crazy.
Josh Gwynn: I want to thank both of you for coming on. It was so great.
Rachelle Hampton: Yes.
Lindsey Weber: Thanks for having us. This is so fun.
Josh Gwynn: In honor of Tyra Banks, the patron saint of this podcast, did we-
CLIP: Learn, learn, learn, learn, learn something from this. Learn, learn something from this. Learn, learn something from this.
Rachelle Hampton: I feel like I learned a lot. I know we joked about a seminar, but I feel like I took one on gossip.
Josh Gwynn: It was the accelerated course, like when Tyra got a business degree from Harvard in three weeks.
Rachelle Hampton: Yeah, I learned what a prefrontal cortex does.
Josh Gwynn: And I learned what a G Flip is.
Rachelle Hampton: We talked a lot about the idea of power leaving traditional gatekeepers, like publications and magazines, but we didn't really talk a lot about who's hands the power of gossip is going into.
Josh Gwynn: Elon Musk.
Rachelle Hampton: My worst fear is just an army of deuxmois. That can't be a good thing
Josh Gwynn: Could you imagine?
Rachelle Hampton: No, and I don't want to.
Josh Gwynn: I think that one of the things I learned in this episode is intention is important. I loved that thing that we talked about with Bobby and Lindsey in terms of does this feel good. I think we should be able to check in and be like, "This is probably not good gossip," or "This is fine."
Rachelle Hampton: Yeah, a gut check. Gossip gut check.
Josh Gwynn: Gossip gut check.
Rachelle Hampton: That gossip gut check only becomes more important as we think about the fact that conduits of gossip are now able to kind of hide behind anonymity and monikers and social handles, so we truly don't know where the gossip is coming from or who it's flowing through.
Josh Gwynn: Or even if it's true. Because what's the difference between gossip and a conspiracy theory and fake news, right?
Rachelle Hampton: Not fake news in 2022.
Josh Gwynn: Oh no, child. I don't know. I just think that gut check is really important.
Rachelle Hampton: Same. Same. And the gut check is important because these questions are so thorny.
Josh Gwynn: So thorny.
Rachelle Hampton: Just a thorn bush. Roses. And we're going to leave some of these roses for you, the listener, to think about as we go back to where we started.
Josh Gwynn: Where did we start?
Rachelle Hampton: Gossip. Did you see the latest Real Housewives of Potomac episode?
Josh Gwynn: I did. You know that Charrisse has two R's and two S's in her name, but she doesn't have any bathroom in that house that they rented out?
Rachelle Hampton: Because she's extra. She has to have the best of everything.
ENDING CREDITS: Back Issue is a production of Pineapple Street Studios. I'm the host and senior producer, Josh Gwynn. Back Issue was created by myself and Tracy Clayton. Our producers are Janelle Anderson, Xandra Ellin, and Ari Saperstein. Our editors are Leila Day and Emmanuel Hapsis. Our managing producer is Bria Mariette. Our executive producer is Leila Day, and our intern is Noah Camuso.
Today's episode was produced by Ari Saperstein and edited by Emmanuel Hapsis. Our sound engineers include Sharon Bardales, Davy Sumner, Jason Richards, Jade Brooks, Marina Paiz, Pedro Alvira and Raj Makhija. Art designed by Cadence 13, and original music Raj Makhija and Dawn Will. Executive producers for Pineapple Street Studios are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.
I’m on Twitter and Instagram @regardingjosh. You can follow the show on Instagram @backissuepodcast and if you can use the hashtag #backissuepodcast to talk about it on Twitter, you sound like you like chaos and I like you. You can subscribe to this podcast wherever free podcasts are sold. You can leave a review, tell your friend, tell your family, tell your enemy, tell everyone because it really, really does help. I'll see you next week. Bye.