CLASSY
parmesan foam and shredded cheddar
What we eat can say a lot about who we are and where we’re from. This week, Jonathan and comedian Chris Gethard face their fear of fancy restaurants as they try to eat their way through their class anxieties. Plus, an exploration of what it’s like when the government decides what you can or can’t eat.
You can hear more from Chris Gethard on his podcast, Beautiful/Anonymous, new episodes are out every Tuesday https://www.earwolf.com/show/beautiful-anonymous/
You can find Sunni’s WIC recipes and more on her TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@justsunni?lang=en
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION
JONATHAN MENJIVAR: When comedian Chris Gethard was just getting started, he got a big break when he was invited to perform at the Just For Laughs comedy festival in Montreal. It was huge for him … you know … that festival it’s like one of those kinds of places where comedians get sitcom deals on the spot. And so, one night, his agents wanted to take him out to dinner to celebrate … on the company card. They take him to this fancy seafood restaurant. And Chris he immediately feels uncomfortable.
CHRIS GETHARD: So you know that feeling when you walk into a fancy place and everything's like. Little too quiet, a little too intimate, a little too nice. The menu has like six items on it, and they all cost $35 each. You know, I’m like flipping over the menu? Like, where's where's the cheap stuff? Where's the cheap stuff that I'm allowed to have?
JONATHAN: Chris grew up working-class in New Jersey. He’s done a lot of comedy about it. And it’s not a bit. His anxiety about things like fancy restaurants–it’s real. In this case, it didn’t even matter that he wasn’t paying.
CHRIS: I was just like, I feel like I should be offering to wash dishes or I feel like I should be offering to clear my own plates. That's how I generally feel when you put me in a fancy restaurant. It's not a good scene.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: Do you remember what you got?
CHRIS: I was tasked with ordering first. Which never feels good. And if I remember right, it was a vegetable dish and a potatoes dish. I want to say that I ordered, like, asparagus and then that came out and was like four stalks of asparagus. Something that I would call mashed potatoes that was probably listed as a fancier name.
[MUSIC]
CHRIS: They all ordered really fancy seafood entrees. And I was bummed. Because it looked good. It looked good. And of course, I was done in like 5 minutes, like I ordered two little, right, sides at a fancy place. These are not filling sides, though.
JONATHAN: You're done and you're. You're hungry.
CHRIS: I'm done. I'm hungry. I'm watching richer people than me eat better food while I honestly sat there and couldn't breathe right. And was sweating through my clothes.
[MUSIC]
CHRIS: And when I started with my shrink, that was one of the stories I told her about. I'll never forget her big line. She's like, Next time you order scallops at a minimum.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: I’m laughing at Chris, but I wanted to talk to him about this because I’m like this in restaurants too. Even though there are so many other ways my life has changed and things I indulge in now without all this baggage… there’s just something about food. I get the same sweaty nerves as Chris. The same total panic. If I don’t know what something is on the menu, I’ll just hold my phone under the table and google it … instead of just asking the server like a normal person. Sometimes I even hide it from my wife. And when I told everyone on the show about this, they were like.. I’m sorry, but this is not a real problem. They suggested something that was kind of like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. They said, you and Chris have to go eat somewhere super fancy and just get over it.I know. Poor me right?
JONATHAN: Okay, Well, I don't have Hollywood money, or Hollywood connections. I do have podcast connections and a corporate card.
CHRIS: And you’ve been told, it’s been signed off on, you’re not going to get in trouble?
JONATHAN: I’m not going to get in trouble. My bosses have said you can and you should take Chris out. Have a good time. So that's, we're going to try and do that.
CHRIS: I can, I am willing to go out. I can accomplish that. As far as if we have a good time. It seems like it might just be two sweaty guys trying to get each other through a long night.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: From Pineapple Street Studios this is Classy, a show about the chasms between us that are really hard to talk about, but too big to ignore. I’m Jonathan Menjivar. Today’s episode is about food. It’s the one thing we all need. And the way that food is intertwined with class. Man, that is more loaded than a basket of chili cheese fries. You’re going to hear two stories about two very different kinds of food insecurity. It’s going to be a little uncomfortable, because that’s the reality of food in America.
JONATHAN: How you doing man?
[tape fades under]
JONATHAN: One evening earlier this year, I met Chris outside a restaurant. It’s an upscale spot in lower Manhattan that’s been around for awhile. A real four dollar sign place. Our producer Kristen Torres had given us an address, and that’s it. She told us, no looking at the menu beforehand, in fact, no googling at all. We couldn’t let the price of anything stop us. I came wearing a blazer and gray flannel trousers. Chris was a little more casual.
CHRIS: I freaked out and realized my sneakers I was wearing with too fucked up. So I went and bought new sneakers in the city.
JONATHAN: Really?
CHRIS: Yeah. And I got a haircut today. It’s true. But I'm a little worried… that guy's wearing a blazer.
JONATHAN: I don't think you need to wear a blazer. I think. I think we're going to be alright.
CHRIS: Seems like a lot of people are dressed up. You look great. I look like trash.
JONATHAN: You don't look like trash, c’mon.
CHRIS: I have a backpack on.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: We walk inside. There’s white linens everywhere, on the table, hanging from the ceiling. They’ve got soft jazz playing. We sit down and we’re handed the drink menu first. Chris doesn’t drink, but there were options.
CHRIS: There are two nonalcoholic mocktails. And there's two things I'm impressed by, which is that one, the Singapore Cleanse has housemade grenadine, which is a flex. And then the almond extract drink says Housemade orgeat. And that's officially the first ingredient that I don't know what that is.
JONATHAN: Okay. Okay. Do you want to know what it is?
CHRIS: I mean, I almost feel like I should just order it.
JONATHAN: You can. You can ask. That's one of the challenges, is we can ask if if there's stuff. Okay.
CHRIS: But when you see an ingredient that you've never heard of and you're 42 years old, that's an intimidating thing.
JONATHAN: It's very intimidating for sure.
CHRIS: Or-gee-at? Orgeat.
JONATHAN: The server approached the table.
SERVER: Anything to drink?
CHRIS: I think so. I was going to ask what's or-gee-at, in that almond extract drink? Do you know?
SERVER: Orgeat. Is an Italian soda. Sorry, an almond soda.
JONATHAN: If you can’t hear that, orgeat is an almond syrup they add to soda.
CHRIS: I'll do that. I'll try one of those. That sounds good. Orgeat. Thank you. So sorry about that.
JONATHAN: There it is: the first of way too many unnecessary apologies that we’ll make over the course of this dinner. I’m sorry about that.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: All right. Are you ready to look at this menu?
CHRIS: Yeah.
JONATHAN: Okay. There's fucking caviar. I've never had caviar. I don't even, I don't want that.
CHRIS: Yeah, I've never. That's $148 for caviar! 148 dollars.
JONATHAN: There's an ingredient that starts.
CHRIS: With an apostrophe!
JONATHAN: I know this sounds like a bit, like we’re in an episode of The Beverly Hillbillies or something. But I was sitting there looking at the menu… and this familiar thing started happening.
JONATHAN: See, you know what? This thing is happening that happens for me where like, it just it's all blurry.
CHRIS: You're legitimately sort of panicking?
JONATHAN: Not full blown panic. I wasn’t having heart palpitations or anything. It’s just this thing that happens sometimes where the menu feels really overwhelming and then my brain just shuts off. And things start to feel a little dizzy.
JONATHAN: This is the kind of menu that scares me.
[MUSIC]
SERVER: Do you need any help with the menu so far?
CHRIS: Yeah, I think we have some questions.
SERVER Yeah, what was your question?
CHRIS: We’re wondering what the kampachi crudo entails?
SERVER Say it again?
CHRIS: The kampachi crudo. I wasn't familiar with…
SERVER: Yes. Kampachi is basically, it's a fish from northern Maui.
CHRIS: Okay.
SERVER: A very creamy, delicate fish, we thinly slice it like a sashimi. And then a gremolata is just like a pepper gremolata with avocado mousse and cucumber. Do you need some bread for the table?
JONATHAN: Yeah, sure. Let’s start with bread. Yeah, that'll be great. Thanks. See like, you bravely asked what the kampachi crudo is. And then he's like, and then he’s like, it's just got a gremolata. (crosstalk)
CHRIS: I was just going to say the same thing. He said, the gremolata is just a nice gremolata. And I don't know what that is.
JONATHAN: I know I'm supposed to ask what a gremolata is, but how can it be that, like, have like I can't be just like, treat me like a baby, You know, like, explain what everything is like…
CHRIS: And are there really people who can walk into this environment and just know this stuff?
JONATHAN: I think so. Yeah.
JONATHAN: And then it was time … we put in our order.
SERVER: Great. So I have a carrot salad, cavatelli, crudo and asparagus to share. And then I got the celeriac and pork. Right?
JONATHAN: Right.
SERVER: Yeah. All right, sounds good. Thank you.
JONATHAN: Thank you very much.
JONATHAN: While we waited for our food, Chris and I started talking about the thing that everyone in fancy Manhattan restaurants talks about: New Jersey. This is not a cheap swipe at the Garden State, in fact, I’m going to put this out there right now: America, your jokes about New Jersey are classist and hackey. We’ve heard it all before … Chris grew up in Jersey. I moved there about a decade ago. And the place has deeply influenced Chris. He grew up in West Orange in a little house right next to a series of other little houses. The kind of place where you could look out the window and see what the neighbors were having for dinner.
CHRIS: I will just say, like growing up the way I did in a town where there were people poorer than I was, and there were a lot of people richer than I was, I think it was this really unspoken thing that we still don't talk about too much, where, it’s like, you are acutely aware of your place. You know, you're pretty acutely aware of how you're viewed, and what your place is. And it always felt to me like there were some dividing lines there. Growing up there. It was called up the hill and down the hill. And it's basically exactly what it sounds like If you grow up down the hill. It's just it's basically a different town. And there's another weird thing in that town, which is that in the middle of it, there's this neighborhood called the Llewellyn Park where Thomas Edison lived. And Whoopi Goldberg lives there now. And you're not allowed to drive through it. You're not allowed to enter it.
JONATHAN: What?!
CHRIS: So the whole town is, imagine a donut hole where there's a private enclave of ultra-wealthy people in the middle that no one ever really addresses. You know in high school, I'll never forget, like, in the lunchroom, you'd be in there with kids, who got, you know, a Mercedes on their birthday when they got their license. And in the same lunchroom, people who fled Haiti months prior. Right. You know, and that’s not an exaggeration. Both of those things are true. Both of those people sitting there. And I just remember having a lot of feelings of like, why isn't anyone addressing this? Why didn't anybody talk about this? And I remember feeling that really acutely. And it created anger.
JONATHAN: Chris said the disparities he was seeing, and the anger about it, it just built, and calcified. Especially when the privilege turned from unfair… to cruel.
CHRIS: There were kids from Seton Hall Prep, which is a private Catholic school in my town, and they were friends of mine who, I guess the story was that some of the Seton Hall kids took a bus and knew there were these public school kids and they used to fill super soakers with pee and shoot them with pee in the mornings.
JONATHAN: What?
CHRIS: Yeah. I have so much love for love for where I grew up but it was also pretty twisted. So, fancy restaurants bring up stories like that.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: Chris and I never came to places like this growing up. Neither did our parents. So it makes sense we feel out of place here. A big night out for my family was going out to a buffet restaurant called Steak Corral where milk was served out of a big wooden barrel labeled “Moo Juice.”
SERVER: We have the cavatelli with a mushroom duxelle, that has the Parmesan foam with a crumbled ham. And then we have the morels.
JONATHAN: Can I just tell you?
CHRIS: Yeah.
JONATHAN: The ham. Is good on the asparagus. But, what, what it reminded me of… when I was a kid, we had bacon bits in the house all the time. Yeah. You know, because, like, we eat salad, but.
CHRIS: We also eat a handful of those here and there if you need a snack. Right.
JONATHAN: Well this is the thing is, I was always raiding the bacon bits just like pouring them in my hand.
CHRIS: Yeah. I did the same thing.
JONATHAN: Oh man. Yeah. So I, this this feels, this, I feel at home eating bacon bits.
[MUSIC]
CHRIS: To this day, I'm not above a Ponderosa. I'm not above an Applebee's. That was fun. And I have a lot of fond memories of that. But these places do, I always try a little bit… I don't want to be aggressive, but I'm like, I feel a little bit like I'm on enemy grounds in places like this, even though I'm a grown up and I've made some money now. And I do still feel some weird anger that there's probably people, like, in here right now who grew up with this and this is standard and they don't realize it's a special thing, you know?
JONATHAN: Yeah. Do you have people who are like, Chris? Fucking let it go, man.
CHRIS: All the time. People I grew up with who were like, we all got over it. And I'm like, when I get together with Jersey friends, there's certain towns if they come up, I just can't resist making fun of... like we used to go into that town and mess with those kids blah blah blah. And people are like, dude, we're in our forties, we're all parents now. I'm like, I get it. I'm mostly just trying to make us laugh. I have one friend who's like, no, but it comes from somewhere. That's real, man.
[MUSIC]
CHRIS: Have you ever been around the type of person we're talking about where they've said or done something where you're like, that's why I can't cross over that even if I have a cool job, even if I've made some money because I have some examples of stuff people are said where I'm like, I can't ever opt into being that.
JONATHAN: To crossing over to the rich side.
CHRIS: Yeah.
JONATHAN: So what are your examples?
CHRIS: Did I tell you about the conversation I witnessed at the Comedy Cellar?
JONATHAN: No.
JONATHAN: The Comedy Cellar in New York. It’s a landmark comedy club.
CHRIS: I was there one night with someone who shall remain unnamed, but who I can promise you categorically you know who it is. And if I said the name, I'm going to say 85% of the people listening to this know exactly who that is without having to Google it. I’m at the Cellar one night, sitting with some other comics. This guy sits down and he goes, “ah, the weirdest thing happened to me on my tour. So fucked up.” We're I like, oh, what? He's like, well, I was doing some shows in Germany, which is already a weird thing to say amongst a bunch of working comics. Like, to put this in perspective, I recently did a tour where St Louis was the most cosmopolitan stop on the tour. And he goes, “I was staying at this hotel. And I called up the front desk and I asked them if they could send up one of the I.V. bags with some vitamins in it.”
JONATHAN: What?
CHRIS: And that's what we all kind of looked at each other. And he goes, and the guy at the front desk acted like I was such an idiot. He, like, didn't know what I was talking about and I had to, he's like, you guys know that now, right? Like, you can get these IV bags full of vitamins. So if you have a cold, they can come like, blast vitamin C into your bloodstream or if you need to, like, you haven't been getting enough sleep, they can like, put vitamins directly in your bloodstream, that'll help you feel awake. And it's a thing now. And the guy goes, “I had to explain to him and he's going, well, we don't have that here. And he just acted like I was such a jerk. And I asked him like, well, where can I get an I.V. bag infusion in this in Berlin or wherever I was? And the guy was like, I'm sorry, I don't know. And I just couldn't believe he treated me like I was such a jerk for asking for something that like, I've gotten at other hotels.” And that's the type of thing I hear someone say. And I'm just like, If you handed me a billion dollars right now.
JONATHAN: Yeah.
CHRIS: What do I have to do with it to not turn it into that?
JONATHAN: Yeah.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: That’s it. That’s the thing. I’ve wanted and desired so much in my life. Things that feel indulgent and unnecessary. And I’ve gotten to have some of those things and give up some of the life I had growing up. I no longer eat Entenmann’s and corn dogs and Cap’n Crunch and Wonder Bread. And sometimes I worry that it makes me kind of a dick. Like, if I enjoy this meal that Chris and I are eating, I might as well be reclining on a chaise lounge with an IV bag full of gremolata. But really, what is the purpose of all this anger? It doesn’t hurt IV guy. It only sends Chris and I into this tailspin that we can’t seem to pull ourselves out of. It doesn’t feel healthy … I know my therapist would have a field day with this. Michael, if you’re listening, let’s just pick up here next time.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: So the main course comes. The server starts to pour this creamy sauce all over the pork belly I ordered. Chris is vegetarian and he got some vegetable I’ve never heard of.
SERVER: Celeriac with a vegan Bordelaise sauce. Black truffle. Portobello mushroom. Crispy Brussels sprouts.
CHRIS: Looks incredible.
SERVER: Looks like you got a filet mignon.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: This pork belly.
CHRIS: How is it?
JONATHAN: It's fantastic. It's like it's. It's meat, but it is just me melting in my mouth.
CHRIS: This food is incredible. Whatever celeriac is, I've never heard of it. It's one of the best things I've ever eaten.
JONATHAN: Really?
CHRIS: Yeah.
JONATHAN: I feel like this is a big moment. Like you were scared to do this and you were really enjoying yourself right now. Are you afraid, like, eating this fancy vegetarian meal that you don't know what it is, but it's the best thing you've ever had that you're like, one step away from the I.V. bag?
CHRIS: I don't think eating it once is going to take me like that forever. But if I started coming to places like this all the time, I would feel like I was trending too far in that direction.
JONATHAN: Yeah.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: I tell Chris that I’m trying to get over this. But I’m not even sure what this is. I just feel like maybe a guy my age shouldn’t be so tormented about eating in a nice restaurant.
CHRIS: I guess the bigger question for me is like, is there any part of you not getting over it because you don't want to?
JONATHAN: I mean, there is a part that feels like if you let go like that tomorrow, I'm going to be shooting my piss out of a super soaker at someone. You know? I know that that's like, extreme, but like, I'm afraid of becoming a dick.
CHRIS: I'm afraid of my kid becoming a dick, too.
JONATHAN: Yeah.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: I mean, really, like what right do I have to complain? Like, we just had an incredible meal. I'm wearing a nice outfit. You know, you got a new pair of sneakers on.
CHRIS: I did. I got a beard trim, and some sneakers. But you know what it is? It's like. The problem isn’t in a place like this. The problem is that you and I both grew up with people who feel like they're not allowed in a place like this. And you and I have climbed, socially and economically, ladders where can go, no, we can go in there and do this bit. We're allowed to do that. But I know there's friends of mine that would just look at a place like this and stuff. Not my thing. That's the thing that we haven't quite cracked the code on. But it's like, is it the fault of a place like this? Why can something as simple as a restaurant feel like such a line in the sand, you know? The doors have been open to me, and I've run screaming in the other direction.
JONATHAN: I think this might be a difference between you and me. Like, I kind of crave it a little bit. Like, I want it. Even though I have so much resentment. Because I do, like, want to fit in, you know. But I think part of it is just like the, uh, I feel so in between, you know?
CHRIS: Yeah.
JONATHAN: That like I ran from somewhere. And if the new place isn't going to accept me either, if I don't fit in there like. Where do I go?
CHRIS: Yeah, I feel that too. But we also can both recognize that that's, like, largely in our heads, right?
JONATHAN: Oh, like, yes, 99%.
CHRIS: Nobody knows a thing about us. Cares that we're thinking about any of this.
JONATHAN: No.
CHRIS: And we probably shouldn't either.
JONATHAN: Yeah.
[MUSIC]
JONATHAN: Over the course of making this show, I’ve felt a lot of things shifting. I’ve had assumptions challenged and preconceptions wiped away. I didn’t think this would happen, just making a podcast, but I have felt better. A little less twisted up than I was when I decided I wanted to do this … But there was something about this dinner with Chris. Even though I was laughing through the whole thing. I started to feel a little worse by the end. Because our hangups are so similar, I started to indulge in them. I could feel myself leaning on my class background like, yeah, I’m uncomfortable here. But at least I’m not like those asshole bankers a couple tables over. I was clinging to all my insecurities and even starting to feel like I was superior because of them. Instead of feeling like an entitled rich person, I was falling into this other, more subtle, trap … It was a bitter taste to end that nice meal with.
CHRIS: I got to know what the damage is.
JONATHAN: $350.
CHRIS: Are you fucking kidding me? That was a dinner. And then it cost us $350. That doesn't feel okay. What was the most expensive thing?
JONATHAN: This is a good question. The pork belly that I ate was…
[FADES INTO MUSIC]
JONATHAN: Chris Gethard. He’s got an incredible podcast I’d highly recommend, it’s called Beautiful/Anonymous. And ok, you know, this is an episode about food. On a podcast about class. And obviously there are more serious concerns about food and class than two yahoos eating in this fancy Manhattan restaurant. So don’t worry, we’ve got another story about food and class coming up, right after this.
[AD BREAK]
JONATHAN: Jonathan here, your very classy host. Today, we’re looking at food and class. And it can be really uncomfortable to talk about. Especially here in this episode, after we’ve just spent a ton of time indulging in a fancy meal. Because of course the reality is… some people have very few choices about what food they’re going to eat. Or if they’re going to eat at all … A lot of that plays out in the kinds of food different people have access to in grocery stores around the country. And our producer Kristen Torres has a story about something that’s happening in grocery stores every day, something that you probably only know about if you’ve ever needed it.
JONATHAN: Hey Kristen!
KRISTEN TORRES: Hola, Jonathan.
JONATHAN: Hola. Okay, Um, so. Grocery shopping. Such an ordinary thing we all have to do, but also just incredibly loaded in all kinds of ways.
KRISTEN: Yeah man, it's… it’s tough. And for 34 million people across America struggling with food insecurity, it can be pretty psychologically taxing. And I know this firsthand because when I was growing up my mom was a single parent supporting a family of five on a minimum wage salary. And we got by. But money was always really tight, especially for groceries. And then when I was around eight years old, my oldest sister became a mom at 16. And so when she got pregnant, she applied for this supplemental food program called WIC – it stands for Women, Infants and Children. And, it's this federally funded program that does a bunch of stuff, but mostly it's known for providing supplemental groceries to low-income women and young children.
JONATHAN: Ok so, it's not SNAP benefits, but it's like one of the other government programs that provide some food assistance to people.
KRISTEN: Right, if you qualify for WIC you most likely qualify for SNAP but that’s a whole other application process.
JONATHAN: Okay, got it. So, um, can you tell me what was it like when you went to the grocery store as a kid?
KRISTEN: I remember all of a sudden we had these paper vouchers that looked like Monopoly money to me. And we had to look for the WIC labels to see what we could and couldn’t buy.
JONATHAN: So there's a label on the shelf or something?
KRISTEN: Yeah kind of, it’s kinda like where the price tags are, and I just remember these tags along the grocery aisles that said WIC in big bright letters – it kinda reminded me of Sesame Street. But I also remember that a lot of the stuff I wanted to get wasn’t covered. I couldn’t get the fun stuff that all the other kids at my school had in their lunches like Doritos or Lunchables or Capri Sun or whatever. All my family could afford to eat was what we could get through these WIC vouchers. Basics like bread, cereal, eggs, milk, and cheese.
[MUSIC]
KRISTEN: So when we started talking about doing an episode about class and food, I immediately thought about WIC and how it fed my family. But my experience with WIC was over 20 years ago, and I really wanted to know if things have changed since I was a kid… And so the important thing to know here is that WIC has this guide that tells you what you can buy – it's called the approved foods list. And when I was looking over the list for California, which is where I live, I got stuck on this one thing. In California, if you use WIC, you cannot buy shredded cheese.
JONATHAN: What so you can’t get shredded cheese but can you get any kind of cheese?
KRISTEN: Well, you can get, yeah there is a cheese allowance. You can get block cheese, you can get string cheese. But no shredded cheese. And I just thought like, what the hell, like why not? It’s the same thing as block cheese, just chopped up a bunch. And look, I know this seems small and kind of silly on the surface, but to me, shredded cheese signifies something bigger about convenience and ease. It bothered me. Like…why is this being treated as a luxury item? And I dunno, I just became obsessed with the fact that low-income moms can’t buy shredded cheese through WIC … So I wanted to understand two things: Why isn’t shredded cheese approved? And is this actually impacting anyone? Like does it matter to anyone but me?
JONATHAN: Um those are really interesting questions and I just want to acknowledge one thing for a second, I mean, government cheese has always been this thing, right? Even if this feels a little silly to be talking about cheese. It was this block of processed cheese people in need could get. But it was also like this heavy symbol of what it means to get government aid. You know, it feeds you, but it also kind of marks you… like, I’ve heard about people who grew up on government cheese talk about the stigma involved in having that cheese sitting in your kitchen.
KRISTEN: Right, and even though that kind of government cheese isn’t around anymore there is absolutely still a stigma associated with receiving government aid. But I should point out, I'm not on WIC anymore, so I wanted to talk to someone who is and who could help me answer my dumb questions about cheese. Which is how I met Sunni. She's kind of TikTok famous.
[ARCHIVAL CLIP, TIKTOK]
SUNNI: Before y’all start. I know WIC is a supplementary program. But I also know that sometimes WIC be gettin’ us through! You can eat only on WIC for a week straight, watch me do it.…
[fade out]
JONATHAN: Wait, people are talking about WIC on TikTok?
KRISTEN: Dude, WIC is so popular on TikTok that there’s a sub-genre called WIC-TOK. Which I love! And Sunni is a total badass. She’s got her master’s degree in theater from NYU. She’s a single mom who lives in New York, and she’s even written a cookbook of recipes that use WIC-approved ingredients.
KRISTEN: Can we talk about shredded cheese?
SUNNI: [laughs] Yeah. Yes we can.
KRISTEN: Okay. So I noticed in your videos that you made this beautiful looking grilled cheese sandwich, and the cheese looked like it was, presumably, cut from a block of cheese?
SUNNI: Yeah.
KRISTEN: And so I was just wondering, like, would it make a difference if you had a bag of shredded cheese available to make that grilled cheese? Like, is that important to what you cook? And is that something that you would rather have or would like to have?
SUNNI: Ugh, yeah, that is something that I would like to have. It just takes out the effort of the like, the shredding yourself. But I didn't always have a good cheese shredder. So at that point it was a necessity, you know?
KRISTEN: So it turns out WIC doesn’t really use vouchers anymore like we had back in the day–they have an app. so I asked Sunni to walk me through it.
SUNNI: Oh, wait, Let me look at this. Does it have shredded cheese? No, it doesn't have shredded cheese. It specifically says: cannot buy shredded grated cubed string or stick cheese. Yeah, string cheese would also be very helpful. Just because you can grab it and go. You get a produce benefit, you get like juice, you get milk, yogurt, whole wheat bread or tortillas, beans, whole grain cereal, eggs and cheese.
KRISTEN: And that is for the month.
SUNNI: Mm hmm. And that resets every month.
KRISTEN: And that's it?
SUNNI: Yeah, It's just a supplementary program. And then if you need more food benefits, they suggest that you apply for, apply for EBT and SNAP. But sometimes that program is, um… not as accessible as the WIC program.
KRISTEN: But then you have to sign up for a whole new program?
SUNNI: Oh, yeah. Whole new program. And that one's like a ten page application and you have to follow up, like, every three months and you have to do an interview and. Yeah, it's like you have to go through the whole process again.
KRISTEN: Ten pages of paperwork. That sounds like an absolute nightmare to me.
JONATHAN: Yeah totally. It’s sounds exhausting.
KRISTEN: It reminds me of this thing I heard about called the Time Tax. It’s this idea coined by Annie Lowrey in an article she wrote for The Atlantic. She talks about how applying for government assistance is basically a full time job for low-income people. So even though aid is available, the task of combing through the paperwork, waiting on the phone to talk to somebody, visiting offices. Like it's such a big lift for someone who is already spread so thin. And when you factor in other barriers like language, learning ability, transportation, all of that compounds a person's ability to even access aid … And so if you’re only able to choose food based on a government approved list, being denied something as convenient as shredded cheese in addition to jumping through all of these hoops creates this kind of psychological burden. For someone like Sunni, it’s like, either she deals with this bureaucracy… or her kid doesn’t eat.
SUNNI: I was just kind of fighting through it because at the end of the day, you have to feed your kids, feed your kids, feed your kids. It doesn't matter how you feed them, feed them. But then I realized that I couldn't let go of that shame until I could give it a name. And that is food insecurity. That's this big thing that we're all trying to fight. And a lot of us are struggling with it and don't know that we're struggling.
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KRISTEN: Sunni told me that she’s creative with the food that’s available to her. I mean, that’s how she was able to make her WIC cook book in the first place. But it’s sometimes hard not to feel boxed in by the lack of choices.
SUNNI: At least with the WIC program, I know that my diet has to be based around certain industries, whether or not it benefits me and my child. I don't know that we would consume as much dairy if we weren't on the WIC program transparently. But that's, that's kind of our situation. You know, it's when you're within a certain tax bracket, you don't really have those other options. But if it's like a government-regulated program in this way, I don't know how much freedom we have.
KRISTEN: Would freedom mean having whatever kind of cheese you want?
SUNNI: Exactly. Yeah. Freedom means having the choice. It's kind of sad that not everybody has a choice. I guess I have become a little accustomed to it. I wish it were different. I do wish it were different. But there's like so many other variables that go into that. I see people that are low-income trying to jump classes every day, you know, and not everyone has the tools or the resources to be able to do that. So I guess I've just kind of invested in improving your quality of life, no matter your tax bracket. I think that's what I have in my power right now.
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KRISTEN: This like shredded cheese thing has become such an obsession for me. What do you think about this? Should I just, like, drop it and, like, stop asking about this?
SUNNI: I don't think you should stop asking about it, because I think that there's a mom out there that needs that. It's just as important to another mom out there. So, no, I don't think you should drop it. I think you keep having the conversations that need to be had! And I agree it is part of a time tax. It's just that little bit of convenience that just, you know, kind of adds to the list that you have going.
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KRISTEN: Okay, so I called around to a bunch of WIC offices across the country. It was a bit of a wild goose chase and I found out that shredded cheese IS actually approved in some states.
JONATHAN: Wait! what?
KRISTEN: I know, right? It’s wild. I talked to someone at the WIC office in New Mexico and he told me that they added shredded cheese in 2020.
JONATHAN: Wait, so people in NEW MEXICO can get shredded cheese?
KRISTEN: Yeah they can. Because the approved food list is different in every state. Which honestly it just fueled my fire even more to learn that a mom in New Mexico gets to have this convenience but moms like Sunni in New York still don't have access to it. So after a few more phone calls and some emails, I finally got someone on the phone in New York.
KRISTEN: I'm wondering uh, specifically in New York, why shredded cheese isn't on the approved foods list?
NY WIC REPRESENTATIVE: Sure. So cost is one of the things that we have to consider when approving food items. So as a state, we are required by USDA to have a cost containment system so that way we can really stretch our food funding further to be able to provide services to as many WIC participants as we can. Because shredded cheese can be a little bit more expensive than other forms of cheese, that decision was made not to provide shredded cheese, but honestly, we don't really get a lot of requests for it. And that's one of the driving factors that helps us make our decisions. If we were to get a lot of requests, we could consider it. But we do offer a variety of cheeses in slices or blocks. As you probably saw on our food list. But if participants do want shredded cheese they could buy a block and shred it themselves.
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JONATHAN: Okay, so you found out that in some states you can get shredded cheese, and then in other states they will consider adding it to the list of WIC approved foods if they can justify the cost, if they can get cheap enough, and if enough people request it. And it kind of makes sense, that if you’re looking at cost, you just get more cheese from a block of cheese than shredded cheese in a bag.
KRISTEN: Right. Even though the nutritional value is the same.
JONATHAN: Right right that part doesn’t matter at all. It’s still the same cheese. So how are you feeling about that answer? Like, you’ve gone on this quest. Do you feel satisfied?
KRISTEN: [laughs] Not really, Jonathan. I guess its…It’s just complicated. I understand that WIC is trying to provide as much as they can to participants. I'm not here to shake my fist at bureaucracy. It’s not surprising that government systems can be confusing and hard to navigate. And it’s not surprising that shredded cheese isn’t covered in some states by WIC because… it's a line item on a state budget. But, I also have the luxury to sit here and gripe about it! While most moms and caregivers enrolled in WIC don’t have that kind of time or privilege. Sunni told me that the time saved from shredding that block of cheese could be used spending time with her daughter instead. And that really stuck with me.
So, to me shredded cheese is this emblem of a deeper psychic struggle. Like, on the one hand these programs are a lifesaver for people who need them. But there’s also this stigma when you’re receiving government assistance… that it’s ungrateful to ask for more. Or that you don’t deserve more. And I think that’s shitty. Like Sunni said, not everyone gets to choose. And you know, I don’t think it has to be this way. And neither does Sunni. She is doing everything in her power to navigate food insecurity from a place of care and love for her daughter, the same way that my mom and my sister did.
SUNNI: Because at the end of the day, like, I just want my child to be happy and I want her to be proud of the environment that she grew up in. And I do want her to be surrounded by joy. And I think about that every single day. So when I'm making her food, we're going to make the best out of it every single day. I'm still going to, you know, make these pancakes out of like ground up oatmeal, and I'm going to shape them into hearts because she deserves it. Yeah, she deserves joy. So it's my responsibility as her mother to make her life as joyful as possible, no matter what we're working with.
JONATHAN: Kristen, do you want to take us out?
KRISTEN: Sure! Sunni is a founder of For the Family, an organization that focuses on providing resources for low-income families in New York City. You can find her on TikTok @JustSunni.
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JONATHAN: So many of the stories we see about poverty and suffering… when they show up on television they’re spun for entertainment. Especially on reality TV, where real people often have to parade their struggles in front of celebrities and millions of Americans watching at home. And it goes back even further than you might think. Arguably, the origin is an old show that some people have called the worst program on television. The worst program ever! And it turns out… my family has a connection to it. That’s next time, on the final episode of Classy.
Thanks for listening, and let’s keep these Classy conversations going. We’d love for more people to discover the show, and the best way to make that happen is if you could take a few minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
[CREDITS]
Classy is a production of Pineapple Street Studios. It’s written and produced by me, Jonathan Menjivar. Our Producer is Kristen Torres. Associate Producer, Marina Henke. Sr Managing Producer, Asha Saluja. Our Editor is Haley Howle. Executive Editor, Joel Lovell.
Our Assistant Engineer is Sharon Bardales. Senior Engineers are Marina Paiz and Pedro Alvira.
Field recording for this episode by Jade Brooks, who very graciously sat there operating all the recording equipment at the restaurant while Chris and I stuffed our faces. Fact checking by Tom Colligan. This episode was mixed and scored by Marina Paiz, with scoring assistance by Sharon Bardales. Music in this episode from Joseph Shabason, courtesy of Western Vinyl, Joseph Shabason, Vibrant Matter and Shabasin, Gunning courtesy of Seance Center. Additional music from Epidemic Sound. Our artwork is by Curt Courtney and Lauren Viera at Cadence13. Marketing and promotion by Grace Cohen-Chen, Hillary Schupf, and Liz O’Malley. Legal services for Pineapple Street Studios by Kristel Tupja at Audacy. Special thanks this week to Natalie Peart. Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky are the Executive Producers at Pineapple Street. The next episode will be out in a week. Make sure to listen on the Audacy app, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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